General Category > Off Topic
Endless Space
orzelek:
--- Quote from: Volatar on May 07, 2012, 10:23:23 PM ---
--- Quote from: Cyborg on May 07, 2012, 09:52:01 PM ---
--- Quote from: Volatar on May 07, 2012, 08:36:54 PM ---Yep. Definitely have had my eye on this one since I first heard of it. Waiting until release though. Star Ruler kinda burned me on picking up indie 4X's without playing a demo first.
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I saw Star Ruler's issues a mile away, and I see one with this game also. Depth. What is it that they do better than sword of the stars? I'm not seeing it besides a smooth graphic interface.
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I hate to derail things, but everyone seems to dislike a different thing in Star Ruler. What issues popped out to you?
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I actually liked it. Even engaged into some coding there. It has for me one main issue - I don't see to much re-playability there. Especially in single player. I simply got bored at some point figuring out how to build largest ship or not get eaten by AI. I simply prefer replaying other games ;)
SotS 2 may get nice once it's finished properly. Altho seeing Endless Space GUI I admit it's very slick and SotS 2 could use some improvements in that area.
I'm looking at Legends of Pegasus currently since it seems to have nice ship design system similar to space empires which I really liked. I'm hoping for at least directional weapons etc.
BobTheJanitor:
--- Quote from: Dizzard on May 08, 2012, 01:17:42 PM ---A.I War isn't a 4X space game is it? I'm guessing not...
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AI War is 4X-ish... sort of. But not really. Like everything Arcen it really can't be easily categorized because it's just too different from all the standards.
Endless Space seems pretty fun to me right now. It definitely has some rough edges, being alpha, but it is at least pretty intuitive and doesn't suffer much that I've noticed from hiding important details in sub sub sub menus. I haven't yet completed a game though, because there's some kind of unity 'fatal error in gc' error (that I believe AI War suffered from many ages ago in the 1.x days) that crops up after 100 or so turns. And the balance really hasn't been done yet, nor are all the races in. But what's there is fun.
Cyborg:
--- Quote from: BobTheJanitor on May 08, 2012, 09:53:09 AM ---
--- Quote from: Cyborg on May 07, 2012, 09:52:01 PM ---What is it that they do better than sword of the stars? I'm not seeing it besides a smooth graphic interface.
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At the moment, it seems that smooth graphics are pretty much the most important thing it has to offer.
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--- Quote from: BobTheJanitor on May 08, 2012, 05:10:33 PM ---I haven't yet completed a game though, because there's some kind of unity 'fatal error in gc' error (that I believe AI War suffered from many ages ago in the 1.x days) that crops up after 100 or so turns. And the balance really hasn't been done yet, nor are all the races in. But what's there is fun.
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* You haven't completed a game.
* All it has right now is good graphics.
* You can't actually complete a game because it crashes after 100 turns.
* Buy this game.
WTF? :D
But yeah, in regards to star ruler, you may as well call it triangle wars because you don't actually get to see gigantic battles like sins. You see a whole lot of triangles except in one view where you have to be extremely close up. The interface is terrible (and what is with that stupid petri dish). You can tell me, it was only the demo, or it wasn't released yet, or it was updated, but my first impression was an unfinished ugly unintuitive mess of a game that still didn't offer anything better than Master of Orion. I think what it did have was the potential to have a gigantic universe, but you may as well play distant worlds for that. It just was not fun.
The other comments that eraser made are accurate. I'm surprised you left out the X series from your 4X review.
Volatar:
--- Quote from: Cyborg on May 08, 2012, 06:45:19 PM ---
But yeah, in regards to star ruler, you may as well call it triangle wars because you don't actually get to see gigantic battles like sins. You see a whole lot of triangles except in one view where you have to be extremely close up. The interface is terrible (and what is with that stupid petri dish). You can tell me, it was only the demo, or it wasn't released yet, or it was updated, but my first impression was an unfinished ugly unintuitive mess of a game that still didn't offer anything better than Master of Orion. I think what it did have was the potential to have a gigantic universe, but you may as well play distant worlds for that. It just was not fun.
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I really liked the concept of fully customization ships and huge battles. In practice there was so little direction to the customization that you had no idea what worked or not (and the triangle effect didn't help you learn). I don't mind Triangle wars if I know what is going on, but I had no idea what was going on in Star Ruler. Then I realized that the ships were using Newtonian physics. Ok, that's kinda cool, except for the part where the AI has no idea how to FIGHT using Newtonian physics. (See the Lost Fleet series by Jack Campbell for how to fight with Newtonian physics (and lightspeed communications and sensors.)) Battles took FOREVER to resolve. I played a coop game with a friend and we had one system that was constantly being fought over for two hours.
Load on top of that the clunky interface and crappy empire control (especially ship production) and the game doesn't get good marks from me.
--- Quote from: Cyborg on May 08, 2012, 06:45:19 PM --- I'm surprised you left out the X series from your 4X review.
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I absolutely ADORE the X series, but I don't get why people classify them as 4X games. They are amazing space sims though. Amazingly immersive given good headphones and a big monitor.
eRe4s3r:
Yeah x games... no research, barebones diplomacy and no ship designer which means it ain't really a 4x game ;p
What I liked about Star Ruler was the ship designer though (all the tech art icons of that are by me so yeah), the idea and concepts behind it are great. Sadly in actual gameplay when it comes down to it, you need like 200 or 300 ships.. at that point it becomes irrelevant how well you designed them as long as they have a shield, armor, engines and guns.. and enough fuel to not die before they reach the enemy. The "no limit" gameplay really doesn't work in games *cough* Distant Worlds *cough* because you can't manage it.
A good 4x game handles solar systems like a normal 4x game handles planets. And uses the MOO3 concept of planet regions (Which is an awesome concept) for everything. So basically, you build mining colonies on planet regions with high minerals but do you really care where exactly that then is?. Combat is abstracted to solar system level and only the central government planet (the "capital" per solar system) has a dedicated battle abstraction (Outer orbit, lower orbit, ground), because let's face it. Taking a mining colony on planet 3 is irrelevant when a hugely developed world has orbital cannons that can shoot at other planets. You need to take and replace the government. That is how, realistically, space conquest would work. Destroying anything beyond the most annoying military installations would be a huge waste. And in best case you even let local government continue and just oversee that from orbit. Obviously the orbital elevators would be the prime focus point. In the end what developed empires would care about are raw materials, food, and skilled people for military or empire duty.
Oh boy, i forgot Space Empires totally ;)
I would kinda say these (the whole series) are good 4x games, where it not for the pain-in-the-backside that is... COMBAT.. urgh. For me, the game stops being fun when I have to fight on equal terms (ie, when I meet a same-strength enemy). I think when a 4X games takes itself seriously you have to absolutely abstract fleets. At best you should order fleets around. You have so many possibilities but reality is.. that you have to camp on the warp-points. Which is what I said above... combat needs to be abstracted to at least solar system level. And a gameplay element should exist that limits movement in certain space regions into (large, but still in some way corridors) so as to allow fortresses that have a point and work like the "zone of denial" in total war games.
There was a japan-only game based on LOGH (Legends of the Galactic Heroes) which did this nearly perfectly. The combat, that is.
I would disagree that 4x fans can never be satiated though. Reality is no sci-fi 4x game so far was the *one* super awesome one that shifted this genre into a golden age. The 4X genre never did have it's quake, doom, halflife or Deus EX equivalent. There is just too little innovation in that genre. And whats really missing is admiral and government systems that feel real. A proper power progression for the player (Why do we start as emperor?). And somehow no 4x game ever got the Immersion right.
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