General Category > Off Topic
Improving Mobas for a solo experience
RCIX:
So the issue I've been chewing on is that as a solo/duo player, once I got pretty good at League of Legends, the experience kinda sucked in several ways. Before our resident DotA fanboy advocate (;D) protests, the issues I've identified are more common to most mobas. Anyway, here they are:
* Ganking
* Counter-picks
* Teamplay
But wait, you protest! These are core mechanics to the genre and need to stay! Well, why? Sure, they make sense in a team context where you can really talk team comps and communicate between 5 people. In solo queue, where 5 people are looking to rambo, have specific champions in mind to play, and wouldn't know what communcation is if a ping slapped them over the head? Yeah....
After all, I signed up to fight enemy players in what I hoped would be a fair contest, and not have to deal with constantly having people thrown at me until I die :x I'm serious. The average solotop game for me goes something like Kill enemy top laner > he comes back, get ganked > get 3manned (which doesn't always work) > 4 or 5 people pile in my lane to push. =/
So anyway, I wanted to mull over the idea with some friends and see if they had thoughts on how to make Mobas a more enjoyable experience for the solo or duo queuer (especially one most interested in fun through enemy interaction).
(Maybe this'll shed some light on my LoL over Dota philosophy?)
Minotaar:
All competitive team multiplayer games (not only MOBAs, but also FPS like Tribes, etc.) after a certain level become much less fun solo. Before that, the core mechanics (killing/shooting creeps/people and progressing) keep you going. Since these games are defined by the teamplay aspect, you really can't downplay the importance of that.
Funny thing is, the vast majority of people play the game solo. They usually deal with this problem by blaming their teammates when anything goes wrong. If that's not good enough for you, the only thing you can do is find a team.
But if we try to design a MOBA so that it works just as well with random people as with a team of friends, I think we'll end up with a really boring game. FPS are better for that since the teamplay advantages are less obvious and the "solo threshold" is higher because things like moving and aiming are more fun and harder to master than last-hitting creeps. But we already have a ton of team-deathmatch games like CoD and BF, no need to spawn new ones.
Wingflier:
You could probably have seen this coming, but personally I think the ineffectiveness of soloing is unique to LoL.
In LoL, you're typically soloing against 1 person, with possible ganks from the jungle across the river, until the mid-game, which, if you're doing well, ganks from anywhere can be expected. As you said, this can be difficult.
In DotA, it's not uncommon for you to be soloing against 2 heroes, sometimes with ganks from a jungle that sits right beside you (not across the river), so in some ways it makes the lane a 3v1. Yet, in DotA this is very possible, and even common in many scenarios.
Consider the situation you're describing: You're a good solo laner, and you're winning your lane. The enemy team notices and starts coming to gank you.
Now there are several key differences between LoL and DotA here:
1. In DotA, wards cover the whole river, so you'll most likely see the enemy team before they come. This gives you more time to react and be prepared than in LoL, where they may just show up and kill you.
2. If the whole enemy team shows up to kill you and take the tower, your team can be there within seconds assuming they have scrolls of teleport.
-This isn't possible in LoL. Teleport is a Summoner Spell, but it's not often taken, and even when it is it has a very long cooldown compared to scroll of teleport. Your teammates may not use it to save you or defend your tower.
3. "Fortify" is a base game mechanic of DotA, so if your tower is under heavy attack, anybody can use it, giving your team 4 more seconds to respond. 4 more seconds means a lot more in DotA than it does in LoL btw, since in LoL most players are going to have to walk there. 4 seconds in DotA means several teammates could have teleported in to help you. Fortify is a Summoner Spell in LoL, but YOU can't control when your teammate uses it, and they may not use it to help you, if they even have it at all.
In other words, the game mechanics in DotA are a lot more friendly for solo laners. If the enemy team realizes you're a good player and comes to shut you down, your team has a way to respond quickly, instead of just letting them kill you and your tower(s).
Of course this doesn't mean that they WILL come help you in DotA, but they at least have the option. The better you get at DotA, you start getting paired with better players, and they tend to help you more because they realize the importance of towers and defending your teammates.
With all that said, I agree with Minotaar that MOBA/ARTS are team games. Regardless of personal skill, your win or loss ultimately depends on your team. However, I like to think that personal skill has a much bigger impact in DotA than it does in LoL, and I think the game mechanics of the two titles reflect that.
Hearteater:
You're right, I did see that coming. And unsurprisingly, your analysis of LoL is yet again incorrect. I'm not even going to bother correcting it because it appears to do no good. For everyone else, just rip out everything he just said about LoL since it's wrong, and read the parts about DOTA from the position of "How DOTA handles solo queue".
Wingflier:
Please show me where I'm wrong. I'm not trying to be obtuse here.
I'll try to condense my points into numbers so that you can point out the flaws.
1. Teleport in LoL is a Summoner Spell that is often not taken.
2. Teleport is not used every time a tower is under heavy attack because it has a long cooldown.
3. For these reasons, it takes much longer for your teammates to assist the solo laner in LoL than it does in DotA.
4. Wards in LoL do not cover the entire river, and last half as long as they do in DotA, so it's easier to gank somebody with your whole team early game.
5. Fortify is a Summoner Spell that is usually not taken, and when it is taken it isn't necessarily used for you when your tower is under attack.
For all of these reasons, the solo laner is much easier to defend in DotA if he is ganked and his tower is under siege. Please explain to me which one of my points is wrong.
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