Author Topic: Refleeting is still way too long  (Read 3501 times)

Offline Qatu

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Refleeting is still way too long
« on: December 06, 2013, 02:25:06 AM »
 Just wanna put it out there that 10-20 minute wait time for rebuilding fleet is really unfun. I think this is the only thing left in the game that really aggravates me (besides homeworld assaults, which is mostly due to the multiple refleets usually necessary for each) that i can't fix with cheats/lobby settings.

Offline doctorfrog

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2013, 04:11:09 AM »
Hitting the plus sign a bunch of times doesn't work for you?

Offline orzelek

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2013, 06:26:04 AM »
It's heavily reduced anyway - and it can't be trivialized since there will be to much cheese produced :D

Offline Zeyi

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2013, 06:54:59 AM »
Have you considered taking better care of your ships?

Offline Toranth

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2013, 08:05:15 AM »
Well, there's always the Handicap setting in the lobby, that can give you a 300% bonus to your economy.

Personally, I don't find refleeting to be a problem, except at the very end of the game.  Once I've unlocked a bunch of extra ships and teched them up to Mk IV, my refleet times increase.  But that's usually something I do only before the AI Homeworld assaults.  And an AI HW assault fleetwipe shouldn't be something quick to recover from, or it becomes too easy.  Balance needs to be maintained somehow.

Although, I would ask - how many economic techs do you unlock?  If you never improve your economy, then it isn't surprising that refleeting still takes forever. 
How many starships are you using?  High mark starships take forever, both from build time and resource costs.  If you have a bunch of Mk IV or V starships, then that'd explain it, too.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2013, 08:16:20 AM »
The last game I played refleeting was a major hurt.  All the worlds worth taking had little to no crystal on them (to the point where I went out and intentionally colonized a weak system for its 4 crystal) and a large majority of my units were crystal heavy.  Like lightning torpedo frigates at 900,000 per 1 (I got 2 per mark).

I accidentally set of a nuclear eye* and lost my entire fleet (note: because of enclave starships, the torpedo frigates, and riot starships I very rarely lost units, and even then it was typically fighters and bombers).  I went "welp.  that's game."

Because it was going to take the better part of four real hours to refleet.  It was easier to just reload a save from 6 minutes prior.

*missed it on the planet symmary.  Oops.

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2013, 09:25:42 AM »
Gents, you can't go around tossing entire fleets at the enemy to solve tactical problems.

Invest in some transports and repair ships, or focus on starships and retreat them before they get too damaged.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2013, 09:34:06 AM »
Gents, you can't go around tossing entire fleets at the enemy to solve tactical problems.

Invest in some transports and repair ships, or focus on starships and retreat them before they get too damaged.

Indeed.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2013, 10:23:51 AM »
Gents, you can't go around tossing entire fleets at the enemy to solve tactical problems.
... (genuinely confused expression) ... you... you mean there are other ways to solve tactical problems?

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Offline LordSloth

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2013, 11:01:02 AM »
I used to have this refleeting problem, and I still do mess up and waffle back and forth on how iron man I am...

But of late, I've been doing a lot better, even against my old Nemesis the thief/stealth master/spireling. Before I offer any indepth advice, (if wanted or actually even needed), are you finding this refleet issue being an all-game thing or just in cases of major screwups (eyes), patrol encounters, strategic reserves, hacking, all at once versus compensating for attrition, or other? Heck, if you're playing with some of the more difficult game setups maybe it isn't advice you need, just that resource handicap and some extra engineers to fit your needs.

Do you tend to have starship fleet wipes, or very expensive extra-low cap bonus fleetships? Bombards and Stealth Battleships can take forever to refleet, but I don't mind at all wiping a full cap of fighters/raiders/cutlasses if the reward is right.

I also tend to find refleeting especially more difficult when I switch to low and ultra-low caps for co-op, as I fail to adjust for the fact that each engineer is effectively at least twice as good at consuming resources.

And I have a fondness for cheap and relatively spammable ships such as cutlasses, raiders. Don't get me wrong, I love Bombards, I just don't like getting caught off-guard during a moment of inattention and losing them all. I'd rather steal 'em back.

Since the lovely invention of the "Do Not Path Here" feature, my accidental fleet wipes are down 90%! Since the nasty-fication of guardians and guard posts, I've had a staggered assault plan/rollout that (putting aside the traditional and time-honored fleetballing discussion) that gives me more time to notice horrible little nuclear eyes, or the fact that -oh- the fortress was on -this- side of the system, whoops, before exposing my more expensive ships. With the staggered plan, even if I encounter an eye, I know that scrapping fighters will be sufficient to save the day. As well, it tends to work well with the AI's new guard post guard fleet specialization. It unfortunately has a huge weakspot to reserves and special forces patrol, and I have to attack differently.

I do tend to bring everything in sooner rather than later, but if my initial wave is small enough not to antagonize the entire system, I may try to attempt being clever - up until the AI starts blobbing me with their bombards and spire tractor platforms.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2013, 01:36:04 PM »
Do you tend to have starship fleet wipes, or very expensive extra-low cap bonus fleetships? Bombards and Stealth Battleships can take forever to refleet, but I don't mind at all wiping a full cap of fighters/raiders/cutlasses if the reward is right.
QFT.  Enclaves, especially the Merc Enclave, and other starships cost so much compared to most fleetships that losing them can be a disaster all by itself.  Usually, I act to preserve my starships first, accomplish my goal second, and preserve fleetships third.  For example, I frequently put Riot Is in a group with my Enclaves, as opposed to running around killing things with the fleetships.

That said, this
Gents, you can't go around tossing entire fleets at the enemy to solve tactical problems.
... (genuinely confused expression) ... you... you mean there are other ways to solve tactical problems?
is a pretty accurate description of how I treat my fleetships.  Triangle ships and most fleetships get spent.  When they're about 90% gone, I pull the group back to preserve as many support starships (Flagships, Riot IIs, etc) as possible.  The starships also get pulled back if facing Arachnid GPs, fortresses, or any other thing likely to kill them off fast.
But normal fleetships?  I fleetwipe those all the time and almost never care.


And I'll say again:  Economy upgrades.  I start every game I play with spending 9000 knowledge on economy upgrades.  Either Harvester IIIs or Mil/Econ IIIs, depending on circumstances.  But that's a 50% to 100% boost to my economy right away, and it gets bigger as the game goes on.  In the AAR forum, there are a number of players that do not prioritize Economy upgrades.  I suppose that's one way to play, but when you have half the economy I do, you should expect twice the refleet times.

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2013, 02:43:21 PM »
And I'll say again:  Economy upgrades.  I start every game I play with spending 9000 knowledge on economy upgrades.  Either Harvester IIIs or Mil/Econ IIIs, depending on circumstances.  But that's a 50% to 100% boost to my economy right away, and it gets bigger as the game goes on.  In the AAR forum, there are a number of players that do not prioritize Economy upgrades.  I suppose that's one way to play, but when you have half the economy I do, you should expect twice the refleet times.

My game I didn't upgrade crystal harvesters, as the x2 to x3 from my metal through the resource converters was a way more efficient use of my knowledge.  I had 3x as many metal harvesters as I had crystal (seriously, I had 6 crystal harvesters, 4 on my home planet!)

I could have gone econ stations, but given that my colonization was as haphazard and spread out as it was (only my home system was not adjacent to a warp gate) the econ stations I was using were fairly precarious.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2013, 05:03:36 PM »
When I encounter the pain of refleets, I am reiminded that autosaves are the norm, not the exception.

Very rarely is a [player] fleet wipe worth the tactical benefits, better that I just reload that I examine what went wrong for better then worst.
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2013, 08:26:33 PM »
When I encounter the pain of refleets, I am reiminded that autosaves are the norm, not the exception.

Very rarely is a [player] fleet wipe worth the tactical benefits, better that I just reload that I examine what went wrong for better then worst.
I disagree with this, mostly because most low-mark fleetships are cheap.  I spend the first 1/2 to 2/3 of the game using just the triangle ships plus my bonus ship.  I'll unlock Mk II of all four early, and Mk III when I get a Fac IV or when I start having problems (with threat, SF, a fortress world, etc).  I fleetwipe all the time, and usually don't care, because I'll be rebuilt quickly and get back to the attack soon enough.  So suiciding my fleetships to do an extra 10% damage to a fortress, or kill another 10% of the SF is more than worth it.
I only start having issues with a fleetwipe when I've captured a few ARSs, hacked a few Fabs, and acquired a Fac IV for Mk IV ships.  But by that point, almost nothing but an AI Homeworld assault will cause me to fleetwipe.

Let's give some examples:
The Mk I triangle ships (Fighter, Bomber, Missile Frigate) have cap MC costs of about 40,000, 150,000, and 115,000. 
So for roughly 300,000 MC, you get a full cap of Mk I triangle ships.
Costs for Mk II and Mk III are x2 and x4, giving 600,000 and 1,200,000 MC.

For 1/2 max resources, you can refleet the entire Mk I and Mk II fleets.  For full resources, you can refleet the entire Mk I-III fleet of triangle ships.

Timewise, a full cap of Mk I triangle ships takes about 2300 seconds to produce, about 38 minutes.  With 10 Space Docks, that's 230 seconds, or about 4 minutes.  With a full cap of Engineer Mk Is assisting, that's about 45 seconds.
Builds times also increase at Mk II and Mk III by x2 and x4 - giving a Mk I-III rebuild time of 330 seconds, or about 5:30 minutes.

During that 330 seconds, your homeworld alone with no economic improvements will produce 330 x (450 x 2 MC) = 300,000 MC resources.  Enough to rebuild your entire Mk I triangle fleet again.  Rebuilding your entire Mk I-III triangle fleet requires about 35 minutes worth of resources from your unimproved homeworld.
With Mk III Harvesters, that drops by about 40-50%.

Starships are where the real refleeting problems arise.  Each starship type costs roughly 2/3 of the fleetship cost, and takes 1/2 the time to build. 
Consider the following fleet:  Mk I and Mk II triangle ships, plus Mk I and Mk II Flagships.
576 Triangle ships - 900,000 MC and 90 seconds.
4 Flagships - 600,000 MC and 60 seconds.



Conclusions I draw from this? 
#1:  Low Mark fleetships are CHEAP.  For a Mk I and Mk II triangle ship fleet, you'd need to fleetwipe every 15 minutes (including 3 minutes rebuilding) to even make a dent in your unimproved homeworld's economy.
#2:  Starships are EXPENSIVE.  Losing a single starship is almost as bad as a fleetwipe of Mk I triangle ships.
#3:  Tackle Drone Launchers are insanely expensive.  More expensive than starship caps, a full cap of Mk V TDLs costs 2.1 million MC and 3 and a half hours to rebuild.  Aka, when I say fleetships, pay attention to which fleetship.  Some low cap fleetships really are expensive.
#4:  Economy.  With economic upgrades and 1-2 average worlds, you can easily double your resource income.  That doubles the frequency you can fleetwipe.
and #5:  Build times suck.  No matter how solid your economy, a full cap of Mk I Engineers and max space docks will still need 5 minutes to rebuild your Mk I-III triangle fleet.  Each starship cap will take another minute.  I think that if anything was done to improve the refleeting issue, it'd be here:  Just reduce build times.

Offline Eternaly_Lost

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2013, 08:45:24 PM »
Gents, you can't go around tossing entire fleets at the enemy to solve tactical problems.

Invest in some transports and repair ships, or focus on starships and retreat them before they get too damaged.

I strongly disagree.

But then again, my average fleets cost more then a MKV Ion cannon from the trader.

Yes, I have worked it out.

When you get a hammer that big, I am fighting the Unity Engine that runs AI wars, not the AIs any more.

At least Cookie monster is always happy, both sides has more food then he can eat in a single pass though a world so he never goes hungry.