Exo-waves on difficulty 8

[techsy730]

Also, is their structural bonus of 2x really necessary. They already have enough firepower to tear through anything, even if they had no bonuses.

[keith.lamothe]

Also, is their structural bonus of 2x really necessary. They already have enough firepower to tear through anything, even if they had no bonuses.

I was wondering that myself while looking at the code a moment ago, but the impression I got initially was that they were actually somewhat underwhelming offensively compared to the mothership, it's just that they go so much faster.  If they had a more mothership-esque speed I'm not sure they'd need the removal of the bonuses.  But we'll see.

[techsy730]

So, what would you consider to be a reasonable speed for them? 30 or so on normal game speed?

[keith.lamothe]

So, what would you consider to be a reasonable speed for them? 30 or so on normal game speed?

30 or 20.  Whatever the missile frigate is, perhaps a little lower.  Their previous concept was more compatible with faster speed but in their current usage any kind of really fast speed is a bit much.

[techsy730]

So, what would you consider to be a reasonable speed for them? 30 or so on normal game speed?

30 or 20.  Whatever the missile frigate is, perhaps a little lower.  Their previous concept was more compatible with faster speed but in their current usage any kind of really fast speed is a bit much.

Just for reference, the missile frigate gets an in-game speed of 44 on normal game speed.

[chemical_art]

I was wondering that myself while looking at the code a moment ago, but the impression I got initially was that they were actually somewhat underwhelming offensively compared to the mothership, it's just that they go so much faster.  If they had a more mothership-esque speed I'm not sure they'd need the removal of the bonuses.  But we'll see.

While it is true they are underwhelming in firepower, you can say the same about golems compared to H/K's. They are not at all the same class.  Remember there isn't one of them in the later game unlike motheships. You got three or four running around in the waves. I have no doubt if these three or four attacked on chokepoint that was defended as one they wouldn't survive. But if they are attack three chokepoints spread evenly then they are going to plow through those three points because there is not enough dps to bring them down in time.

If you really want to get nitty gritty remove the bonus and increase dps 25%

[techsy730]

So, in summary, how about:

* Reduce their speed to about that of missile frigates or lower
* Give them an immunity to speed boosts (if they don't already)
* Remove their bonuses but give them an increase dps of 25%

I could live with that.

Oh, should they also get an immunity to attack boosts?

[Nethris]

That was all well and good, I think, but then a totally unrelated change was made to make most larger-than-a-starship ships (including spirecraft and golems) "immune to gravity".  Meaning immune to grav turrets and logistical stations.  I've never liked that change   One of the points of the grav turrets, I thought, was that the only counter to them was to blow them up.

So, if the lead ship is immune to gravity, the whole exo is effectively immune to gravity.  Unintended consequences, eh?  On the other hand, grav turrets are really one of those we-all-know-they're-overpowered-but-they're-fun-that-way units, so implicitly making exos the counter to grav-based defenses isn't the end of the world.

As much as I hate to give you ideas...

Just how long would grav turrets last against exo waves they could slow?  I would have expected an exo wave that wanted to run past to have focused them down, and since some of them have raid starships along even FFs wouldn't necessarily keep the grav turrets alive.  Do AI ships just not go after grav turrets as aggressively as I think they do, or do the escorts not help the lead ship shoot them due to them not being directly effected?  If AI ships aren't focusing down grav turrets that are keeping them from getting where they want to go, they probably should be.

If you did revert the grav immunities, sticking in some logic for exo waves with large enough budgets that raid starships become relatively cheap to make sure they include at least a ship or 2 that can shoot through forcefields to be a threat to grav turrets protected that way might be a reasonable tradeoff (assuming the exo waves would actually shoot the grav turrets).