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Messages - Revenantus

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1
AI War / Re: please change 'expansion 1' to Zenith Remnant
« on: February 09, 2010, 03:39:46 PM »
Are you referring to the fact that the expansion specific files are stored in the AI War/Expansions/1/ folder? If this is the case then this is internal, logical file structure for the game files that most players will never need to even look at. If your plan is to modify certain files such as images to customize your gameplay experience, this is perfectly acceptable but not something that is officially supported by Arcen Games.

Of course, if the TZR expansion is referred to as 'expansion 1' somewhere within the game in such a way that players might be confused, please let us know precisely where this can be found.

2
AI War / Re: exo-galaxy wormholes
« on: February 08, 2010, 11:13:59 PM »
Sounds tough, thanks for the fast and informative reply.



No problem! You're actually not the first player to ask about this, so I've added the information under the defense category on the wiki - http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War:Fleet_Command#Defense

3
AI War / Re: exo-galaxy wormholes
« on: February 08, 2010, 10:46:03 PM »
The presence of an exo-galaxy wormhole in your home system implies that you're up against a Backdoor Hacker AI type.

Backdoor Hackers have an exo-galaxy wormhole in each player's home system, which they can launch waves through. There's no way of preventing the AI from using the exo-galaxy wormhole to send waves against your planet, so you'll need to have adequate defenses in place for the duration of the game.

Good luck!

4
AI War / Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« on: February 07, 2010, 06:35:00 PM »
A somewhat sideways question:

Take the recently added "Stay at MRS" control node that makes ships that have just been repaired by an MRS stay with the repairer rather than return to the location they were tugged from.  Is that "better" as an interface checkbox or as a global control node?  Now break down the meaning of "better".

I think there are two definitions of 'better' that are relevant to this discussion. The first is whether implementing a given element in the game makes the game 'better'. In this case I think that the game is 'better' if the implementation of the element results in a net gain of enjoyment of the game for the general playerbase.

In the case you've questioned, which implementation of a given piece of functionality is 'better' is, in my eyes, dependent on the following factors;

 - Context. Does the implementation make sense in the context of the game universe?
 - Consistency. Are other elements that provide similar levels of behaviour implemented in similar fashion?
 - Convenience. Does the implementation make sense in terms of usability?

Now, all of those are unfortunately subjective, and so can only really be decided by majority vote. I have challenged control nodes in all 3 areas in the past, and that's not because I think that having them available is bad, in fact I'd much rather have the functionality provided by control nodes than not at all, but because I'm concerned that they're not the optimum design choice.

I'm continuing with this debate at this point largely because I find it interesting on its own merits, and not because I am really expecting anything to change because of it. I'm completely satisfied that Chris, and many others, have read and seriously considered my views rather than dismissing them, and that's really all I require. If, having seriously considered my concerns, others don't agree with me, I am still all the happier for having had the discussion and don't harbour any grudges whatsoever. I'll continue to discuss this topic for as long as I feel I can make productive arguments, and then no further.

It's a fact that these debates take up time, and so if others don't always have that time available to participate in them beyond a certain point, that's unfortunate but there's nothing that can be done there. Everyone has to prioritize their time.

5
Off Topic / Re: This game is seriously f'kin awesome
« on: February 07, 2010, 04:44:07 PM »
Thank you for the link!  I had no idea you guys published articles, too.  As a CS student, I'm very interested in this kind of stuff, and I think it's awesome you guys are nice enough to let the world know how you guys work.

Cool stuff. Feel free to contribute your thoughts or ask any other questions you might have - many of the staff are very active on the forums.

And I forgot to mention in my original post another thing I loved about the game: the MUSIC.  It's so perfect for the setting!  I have one of the tracks stuck in my head right now, actually xD.

Pablo Vega, the composer of all the game's music and also many of its sound effects, will be pleased to hear that! I particularly like some of the new expansion tracks.

Thanks for welcoming me!

No problem! :)

6
Off Topic / Re: This game is seriously f'kin awesome
« on: February 07, 2010, 04:13:54 PM »
Welcome to the community, Junkhead!

Glad to hear you're enjoying the game so much. You have Chris Park (x4000 on the forum), CEO of Arcen Games and Lead Developer of AI War to thank for the AI. You might be interested in reading some of his 'Designing Emergent AI' series of articles if you want to gain some insight on its creation/workings - http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/board,5.0.html

Very cool story - the AI is definitely a dangerous opponent and has snatched victory away from me at the last moment on numerous occasions. :)

7
AI War / Re: Hello, again
« on: February 07, 2010, 02:41:40 PM »
Yes, both of those AI types are supposed to launch waves. The only other possibility I can think of is if the 'No Enemy Waves' modifier was enabled when the game was launched, failing that, it might be a bug.

Can you confirm which version of AI War you're running, and post the relevant save game? Thanks.

8
AI War / Re: Hello, again
« on: February 07, 2010, 02:23:44 PM »
If there haven't been any waves after 3 hours it's unlikely that there will be any, no. This suggests that you're up against defensive AI types that don't launch waves. If you'd like me to verify this I can do so if you post your save game.

It is possible to alter the AI types that you're up against if this is a problem for you. See this post - http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,2629.msg16381.html#msg16381

9
AI War / Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« on: February 07, 2010, 12:04:44 AM »
You both seem to be taking the view that which elements are interface and which are gameplay is objective. It isn't. It is entirely subjective to the player.

You are correct that there isn't a completely objective definition of either - that's inherently true because they're both human created concepts. In my earlier post I was attempting to invent a generally acceptable definition of both, as it seems surprisingly difficult to pin down in the context of a game. Whether my suggested definition is actually any good is another matter.

I am not at all clear what 'idealized player' means, nor can I infer it from the context.

I used the term in my earlier post as part of my definition of gameplay and interface elements, again, it's not a universal term, just one I needed for my argument.

Quote
To clarify what I mean by an idealized player, I mean a player that is not constrained by their skill, time availability, or patience. I think this particular distinction is important because no human is an idealized player, so while, for example, attack-move does improve a player’s chances of success, it is still an interface element. If one was unconstrained by time and patience they could achieve the same effects as attack-move mode by issuing more basic orders manually. The point there is that interface elements can still make the game easier for human players.

As far as I am concerned when I read a book I try to appreciate the intention of the author, when I watch a film I try to experience the effect intended, without getting distracted by the room temperature or the size of the screen.
On the other hand, when I play a game I enjoy 'going along' with the game the developer has made. It is part of the fun.
The developer puts in fighters, or wormholes, or golems, or whatever, and I go, 'oh goody'. I'll have some fun with those. Similarly there are knowledge cost to control nodes that are so negligible as to be insignificant, and I go 'I'll play with those then....new toys...'

I'm not attacking the interface in general here, or saying that the information given to the player is correct or incorrect, and I'm happy to see resource costs attached to certain elements of the interface as long as it's done consistently. The post was an attempt to classify game elements based on their effects on gameplay, and was almost entirely philosophical, and shouldn't impact how you perceive the game when you're actually playing it.

Yes, I did launch a small attack on control nodes for a different reason, but I admitted that was on a subjective basis.

On the other hand, if the position of a ship is misrepresented because of an interface error, or an energy number does not represent the effect of the value, then without an in-game reason - either discoverable or explicit, then I cry "Interface problem..."

True, that's an interface bug, but those are a different issue.

Does that mean I am not an 'idealized player?'

My 'idealized player' is largely hypothetical, and no human fits the definition. Maybe I should have chosen a better name, because it wasn't meant to imply that anyone should be striving to become this thing.

Anyway, I can't resist a good debate.

Cool. :)

10
AI War / Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« on: February 06, 2010, 11:18:54 PM »
It boils down to this for me:
Want to charge for control nodes?  Then I wont use them.  (I actually don't use them even after they're free because I got used to ignoring them.)
Want to take away my intel summary because I don't have a scout?  I'll form my own intel summary.

Perfectly tenable viewpoints, but I'm not actually attacking the fact that there's a resource cost attached to the use of certain interface elements, in fact in many cases I'd defend it, though that wasn't the main focus of the earlier argument so I only hinted at it.

Quote
Having established that interface elements can make the game easier, despite them being irrelevant to idealized players, it could make sense to charge the player resources for the privilege of having access to them. I think the way to proceed with this question is to start by looking at it from a thematic view point.

I intend to address the issue of resource costs of interface elements more completely when I make my post on consistency.

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AI War / Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« on: February 06, 2010, 11:08:27 PM »
I read this much and agree completely.  A great line of thought.  But I got lost at the next paragraph which began talking bout "player vs human" gameplay.  Humans are the players, and player vs player gameplay isn't part of this game.  I read a blip here and there afterwards, but it was all a bit philosophical for me.

Much of the post wasn't entirely specific to AI War, but I should clarify that when I use the term player I'm referring to any participant of the game, be them human, AI, or even otherwise if that's possible. The point there was just that if there's a non-idealized player in the game, that is one that is constrained by any combination of their skill, patience, or time availability, then there's no such thing as an interface element that won't be at least indirectly relevant in terms of the tactical decision making.

How about an ideal player vs an ideal player.  An ideal player couldn't care less about scouts, or destroying his opponents scouts, because both know that the other doesn't need scouts.  Scout are still a cheap fast cloaking unit which are great for maintaining constant visual on a planet, but I currently don't consider a scout sitting any a sector any different than say a Zenith Mirror sitting on the same planet (although the mirror isn't cloaked, so might not last long).

In the case that the game contains only the hypothetical idealized players, then any aspect that could falls under the definition of interface element as defined by ,“A gameplay element can directly affect the tactical decision making process of an idealized player, an interface element cannot.”, has absolutely no impact on the flow of the game. For all intents and purposes, the interface elements are irrelevant in this case and only the gameplay elements will affect the outcome. The earlier discussion attempted to show that the interface elements only contribute to the decision making process because of the fact that there's unlikely to ever be a game that only contains idealized players.

So, let's consider your case of the scout on the planet versus having a zenith mirror stationed there. Assuming you have unlimited time and patience, whether or not you have access to the planetary summary will not affect your decision making process, because either way you ultimately have access to the same information, so I'd consider it to be an interface element.

So, now assume that you don't have unlimited time (i.e. the pause feature is unavailable for whatever reason) - now having that scout is potentially useful because it provides an intel summary at a glance that you couldn't quickly compile for yourself. Now, knowing that you'll be constrained by time availability, your opponent might decide to destroy your scout to make things more difficult. Therefore, that interface element has affected the flow of the game indirectly, because your opponent has decided upon a different course of action not because of the specific effect of something on the game map, but an understanding of your limitations in terms of the interface. If you were an idealized player, your opponent would have no reason to attack your scout over anything else.

12
AI War / Re: Unit Abilities vs The Interface
« on: February 06, 2010, 09:22:03 PM »
My first concern on this front is the blurring of what a gameplay element is versus an interface element. I’ve spent some time contemplating how to distinguish them, perhaps the following is sufficient;

“A gameplay element can affect the tactical decision making process of an idealized player, an interface element cannot.”

To clarify what I mean by an idealized player, I mean a player that is not constrained by their skill, time availability, or patience. I think this particular distinction is important because no human is an idealized player, so while, for example, attack-move does improve a player’s chances of success, it is still an interface element. If one was unconstrained by time and patience they could achieve the same effects as attack-move mode by issuing more basic orders manually. The point there is that interface elements can still make the game easier for human players.

But there’s a problem. What about having access to the planetary summary on a given planet? Now, all the information provided by the planetary summary is available to the idealized player without access to a scout, so at first, according to my earlier definition, this looks like an interface element. However, the idealized player might be fighting against a human. So perhaps more accurately, access to the planetary summary is a gameplay element because the idealized player might actively try to destroy the human scout to prevent the human from having access to that data. In this way, full access to the planetary summary has affected the idealized player’s decision making process, so it can be considered to be a gameplay element.

This extends further, what about attack-move from the point of view of the idealized player fighting the human? The fact that the human can issue that order might affect the idealized player’s actions, even though attack-move isn’t used by the idealized player. In truth, nothing would fall under the definition of interface element using my original definition, so I’m going to update it for the purposes of actually being able to continue with my line of thought;

“A gameplay element can directly affect the tactical decision making process of an idealized player, an interface element cannot.”

I’ll consider the changes in the idealized player’s decision making process caused by the non-idealized player’s use of interface elements as indirect effects on the decision making process. This was I can still consider attack-move mode and the planetary summary to be interface elements. What I consider to be interface elements will still affect the flow of the game - I don’t think there’s any escaping that.

So, It follows from this that interface elements are necessarily built on top of gameplay elements. For example, would one say that issuing a unit with a move order is an interface element or a gameplay element? The method of actually issuing the order is the interface element, but the fact that it is possible to issue a move order is a gameplay element. This can be seen in that even an idealized player would play differently if it weren’t possible to issue move orders, so the decision making process is directly affected. So if the fact that it’s possible to issue move orders is a gameplay element, why don’t I consider the fact that it’s possible to issue attack-move orders to be a gameplay element? Because the existence of attack-move is irrelevant to the idealized player - their patience is infinite and they’re unconstrained by time so they can achieve the same results by issuing move and attack orders.

To summarize here, we have the possibility of attacking and moving as gameplay elements, and the methods of actually effecting these actions, or combinations of them, as interface elements.

Since humans are in fact not idealized players, interface elements can and will affect the difficulty of the game. So, what sort of interface elements should be provided? If the provided interface elements are too basic, the player will be forced to perform mindless repetitive tasks. Too many sophisticated elements, and potential enjoyment of the game that could be derived from difficulty and development of player skills could be lost. Almost without exception, I think AI War strikes this balance brilliantly. Chris’ earlier post in this thread makes a strong case for why reactor management and scouting aren’t handled automatically, which I agree with.

Having established that interface elements can make the game easier, despite them being irrelevant to idealized players, it could make sense to charge the player resources for the privilege of having access to them. I think the way to proceed with this question is to start by looking at it from a thematic view point.

The answer to the above depends on the creator’s design philosophy. Is the interface we use to interact with the game actually external to the simulation, or is even the interface itself part of the simulation? Put another way, is the interface we use to command ships in AI War actually a simulated interface that the human commander we’re supposed to be is using?

Supposing we consider the game to be simulating the interface that an actual commander would be using, then it does make sense the in-game resources could be used to upgrade it. In contrast, if the interface is external to the simulation, then it’s clearly absurd, at least from a thematic standpoint, to charge in-game resources for access to certain features of it.

If we take the view that the interface is external to the simulation, then all possible inconveniences, such as difficulty issuing specific orders or displaying summaries of information that we already have access to in other, albeit less convenient, forms, are the result of imperfections in the interface and should be rectified by the developer. Arguably true in some people’s eyes, but that’s only true if the interface is supposed to transcend the game. I think a more appropriate way of looking at things is to consider the interface of the game to be displaying only the information that the supposed human commander would have access to if they were actually coordinating the simulated battle. In this way, everything that might have been considered an ‘imperfection of the interface’ in the previous case is really just an aspect of the game. I wholly ascribe to this view.

An example of the above is again not having access to the full planetary summary without the presence of a scout. Some might say that it’s an imperfection because they have access to that information by simply looking at the ships on the planet, so it’s pointless to just not provide the information all the time regardless of whether a scout is available. Alternatively, we might assume that the actual human commander is having to base his decision on only having access to the visual data with no way of processing it into a  planetary summary, and so this limitation is an intentional challenge.

Does this mean we should never be requesting interface upgrades? No, because even if they’re really aspects of the game, we don’t have to like and agree all those aspects, and so improving them can improve the overall gameplay experience. In the same way that updated gameplay mechanics can eliminate tedious aspects of play, so can interface updates.

In my mind, control nodes are in a real gray area. Control nodes are effectively ignored by the AI - they aren’t there to affect the choices the AI will make. However, control nodes are also units, which represent physical structures in the simulated environment. This is admittedly semantics, but it leads me to describe control nodes as ‘phantom units’, which is really an oxymoron.

The new control node present in the prerelease is an interesting specimen. It’s a constructible unit that affects a fairly important game mechanic, and yet the unit is not intended to interact with the other units in the game in any manner whatsoever

Still, if control nodes were an asset to be defended which the AI would actively seek to destroy in order to hamper the player’s operations, they would make sense, I would see them as supplementary AIs to assist in my operations. As it stands, they are like a physical manifestation of a settings menu. I have to admit that this issue has no objective basis, but the above thinking is the main reason that I’ve been opposed to them.

The only objective measure of ‘correctness’ I can then see is consistency. Okay, done ranting, I’ll continue with my thoughts on what I mean by consistency later.




13
AI War / Re: A Question About Starting a New Game
« on: February 05, 2010, 11:27:21 PM »
Hi Captain Cake!

The x3, x4 etc by a planet indicates the number of wormholes connecting to it. For example, a 4x planet links to 4 other planets. How many wormhole connections your home planet(s) have can have an affect on the flow of the game early on.

14
AI War / Re: Few things I noticed tonight
« on: January 26, 2010, 07:03:40 AM »
Warp gate initiated waves don't travel through the planet that initiates the wave - they simply appear out of the wormhole on the planet that they're attacking. The rationale is that the ships are coming from outside the galaxy.

In contrast, ships that participate in cross planet attacks are drawn from the AI's existing guarding ships, so those have to actually travel through the wormhole network in order to reach your planets.

15
AI War Strategy Discussion / Re: new ships
« on: January 25, 2010, 02:33:37 PM »
Hi,

There's a page on the community wiki detailing many of the game's units you can view Here.

The data on the page is up to date as of AI War 3.0, but it's not a completely exhaustive reference (yet) - it doesn't include many of the Zenith bonus ships. I'm currently working on the page as I can find time.

Alternatively, if you press F3 to enable debugging information in-game, then press Ctrl+Shift+F8, data for every unit type in the game will be exported to ShipDataFull.xml which will then be found inside the Data folder in your AI War directory.

If neither of these solutions is adequate, could you elaborate as to precisely what you're looking for? Maybe I can put something together.

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