Messages

31

AI War / Re: AI Ship Hoarding

« on: November 30, 2012, 01:30:21 PM »

Made  a choice of ending the game and turning CPA off for a more normal game thinking it a fluke.  Game went along normally until I got my whipping boy up.

On a side note, 10/10 is not usually considered a 'more normal game'. 

Again the AI refused to advance until their numbers were extremely in their favor. I used a world past the whipping boy to add a ingress point allowing them to not warp right into whipping boy. Insult to injury at times a wave, which had jumped right into the whipping boy, would just abandon its attack and retreat en mass. 

I've dropped off a save with this situation to Keith already, and he's looking into it.  Short version of the story, until recently Turrets were valued at /10 of their actual firepower, so the 30 second wave enforcement didn't matter as much.  Recently it was updated to be straight firepower, and the waves see a real whipping boy and run like little girls now on entry.  Should be fixed in the reasonably near future.

Eventually these waves would clog around worlds I had defended with no way for me to move them short of warheads. At first I used riot and other tractor craft to pull chunks of the wave into my worlds but their numbers got so high, they just instantly killed anything I sent out to fight them. Have just a light turret layer on the home world right now and a wave of 2.2k ships just sitting outside of it.

Threat ships seem to be getting 'stuck' lately.  There was one bug recently cleared up because of dead turrets on the foreign world.  If the threat-building world just seems... asleep... for no reason and it's right on your border grab a save of the problem and Mantis it/post it here.  Keith is usually rather happy to un-dorf the AI when it gets silly.

SF posts up 3 worlds out, as do the threatballs.  They operate independently.  Threatfleet fires up after 30 minutes of 'idleness' by a smaller threat unit.  My guess is if you ignore your gate for 30 minutes, they'll wander off to the threatfleet.  They'll beat the demons out of your satellites but it'll at least get them off your doorstep.

32

Off Topic / Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?

« on: November 30, 2012, 01:18:17 PM »

Good luck ... you're gonna need it.

Seriously.  Remember what you learned in Dwarf Fortress.

It's a good one!

Errr, attack poisonous blood FBs with melee weapons while using your infants for shields?

33

Off Topic / Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?

« on: November 29, 2012, 11:40:02 PM »

To be more precise: Is Philia possible without Eros, in the kind of male-female relationships Moonshine Fox is talking about? Yes. 

Is it wise to bank on it, in general? In my opinion, no

That would be putting it far more bluntly than I intended, but that's the gist of it.

Please see my personal quote... (to the left, not ... and then we'll have pie!)

I'm going to be worse for the blunt.

In general, I have a lot of female friends.  They are all either A) Friend of girls I wanted to bang or B) Girls I wanted to bang.  We became friends by accident.  We all still flirt, even if we know there's no point to it.  And that's 15+ years later.

Wing was a lot more intellectual than I would be in this.  It comes down to a simple thing... do you want her head on your shoulder in the morning when you wake up and the friendship enough to roll the damned dice or are you unwilling to risk the friendship you have on s*it*uations gone horribly wrong with poor word choices?

Chase it or enjoy it, but pick one and live with it.  You're obviously mature enough to swallow your jealousy and wish her the best, from your earlier comments.  Either be the best, or enjoy your friend.

34

AI War / Re: Proposed update for the Orbital Mass Driver

« on: November 29, 2012, 11:29:36 PM »

I don't want to interfere with the conversation, but I'm looking for a worst case scenario save that I can hand off to everyone that isn't core/hw that explains what I'm trying to say about OMD's and the requirement for Raid SSs to have a shot in hell against them.

I regularly include the Neinzul Factory ships and Flagships into my standard armada right now, because nothing says love like Fighters that survive the first strike.  In general though I agree with Kahuna, a flock of bombers will not take out an OMD on a planet.  Four maybe.  I have other things I'd rather do than wait until I've rebuilt the bomber flock four times.

This MIGHT come back to the whole economics discussion though, which is why I want to wait until I have a real scenario for the issue that can be tested.  My current 9/9 game (at 16 hours in, mind you) I'd feel rediculously hard pressed to remove an OMD under glass on anything over a MK II planet if Raids didn't work.  There is nothing in the base arsenal that could remove them in a reasonable fashion otherwise.

@Keith (I know you're watching just letting us hash it out): What would the difficulty codewise be of swapping OMD's to a different set of stats based on minor faction selection?  Basically, I'm thinking of a different OMD being seeded should a superweapon faction be selected.

35

AI War / Re: Request to Keith - CPA Strategic Reserve Spawns

« on: November 29, 2012, 11:12:19 PM »

The first rule is tech limitations for the wave.
At under Difficulty 7 the tech limit is maxxed at 2.
At 7 -> 7.8 the max tech limit is either 2, or the AIP tech level if it is larger.
At 8+, the max tech limit is 5.  AIP doesn't matter.

The numbers are right, but this is not a maximum tech level; it is the tech level at which it starts looking, nothing more.  Long ago it was a max, but CPAs kept coming up short, etc, and they're just more fun when they can dump a load of mkIV on you if things are strange

Okay, what do these actually do?  My CPAs at 9.0 don't start at Tech V, they start at Tech I/II, depending on what the AI is at, so I'm not sure I understand what the difference than between 7+ and 8+ is, because I don't see, mechanically, what you're describing.  I believe that's why I made the assumption I did... that and I haven't played a game under 8 in a long time.

Sorry, I missed the other problem in there, and I think in general I goofed in how I said it before:

Below 7, the CPA's initial target tech level is 1 if the AI tech level is 1, and otherwise is 2.
>= 7, the CPA's initial target tech level is the AI tech level.

There's some math in the code that no longer applies, and it had confused the issue for me

Damn thee man!  What the hell is wrong with you!  How dare you quickly read through 18 billion lines of code and misstate something to the layman!  You're a horrible evil person trying to make business the culprit of your failures and the CEO on the golf course will hear about...

... errr....

... wait.

Um.  Sorry, the problem was on my side.  Bit of Pebkac.  Whoops.  I used Ctrl-U instead of Ctrl-C for my copy/paste.

How do I retract a request to HR to have you beaten in public again?  Oh, crap, they've already erected the whipping post.

Sorry.  You want a bottle of moisturizer?

Ow.... that looks like it hurt.  12 more?  Oh my, I can't watch.

36

AI War / Re: Request to Keith - CPA Strategic Reserve Spawns

« on: November 29, 2012, 11:54:22 AM »

We're getting closer

I was afraid of that...

I'll address the math later when I've had more caffeine, but I'm not sure I understand this part at all then...

The first rule is tech limitations for the wave.
At under Difficulty 7 the tech limit is maxxed at 2.
At 7 -> 7.8 the max tech limit is either 2, or the AIP tech level if it is larger.
At 8+, the max tech limit is 5.  AIP doesn't matter.

The numbers are right, but this is not a maximum tech level; it is the tech level at which it starts looking, nothing more.  Long ago it was a max, but CPAs kept coming up short, etc, and they're just more fun when they can dump a load of mkIV on you if things are strange

Okay, what do these actually do?  My CPAs at 9.0 don't start at Tech V, they start at Tech I/II, depending on what the AI is at, so I'm not sure I understand what the difference than between 7+ and 8+ is, because I don't see, mechanically, what you're describing.  I believe that's why I made the assumption I did... that and I haven't played a game under 8 in a long time.

I'm not sure what's meant by the "(or AI tech level, should they have an enforced level, such as a technologist)" bit, though.

Well, I assumed a CPA fired off by a Technologist would start at AI Tech IV.  It apparently desperately needs to be rephrased.

Diff 8+: If AIP is at tech level 3, it is uncapped.  So it will perform the planet search cycle for Tech III ships, then Tech II ships, then Tech I ships, then Tech IV ships, then Tech V ships.  Then stop.

The last example is correct, for the first two: instead of stopping they would go back to (target tech level + 1) and count up to 5, then stop.

If 8+ is supposed to start at 5... *scratches head*

37

AI War / Re: Request to Keith - CPA Strategic Reserve Spawns

« on: November 29, 2012, 01:36:10 AM »

Alrighty, finally got home today.

So, I just want to reiterate what you said earlier Keith and make sure I've got it square.  Thanks for the detailed post.

CPAs (Cross Planet Attacks) are timer based assaults launched by the AIs.  Their strength is determined by either AIP or by time since start of game, whichever gives the CPA the greatest strength.  Note: Core CPA Guardposts are determined solely by AIP.  (Formula: 100 * Difficulty * AIP/50 (or 1, if 1 is greater) * (0.67 + (0.33 * # of Human Homeworlds)) )  Once released, they act similarly to Cross Planet Waves, in that they are simply released threat.

CPA strength determines the number of ships to be released as threat.  This number is not cap modified, so if your AIs are running Laser Gatlings expect an easier time of it than if they're running Blade Spawners.  This is highly unlikely to change barring some drastic events being documented.

The CPA will attempt to fill out the # of ships according to a series of rules:

The first rule is tech limitations for the wave.
At under Difficulty 7 the tech limit is maxxed at 2.
At 7 -> 7.8 the max tech limit is either 2, or the AIP tech level if it is larger.
At 8+, the max tech limit is 5.  AIP doesn't matter.

Within these limits, it will now try to pull half the CPA population from the Strategic Reserve, as long as it doesn't drop the strategic reserve below 50%.

After getting these troops from the strategic reserve, it will then attempt to pull the rest of the CPA population from existing planets.  The following process will be cycled through from Current AIP Tech level (or AI tech level, should they have an enforced level, such as a technologist) down through to 1, and then from +1 current level through to 5 if you're at 8+.  Planets will only be considered if the humans are not in force on the planet (less than 1/3 the AI's military ships).

Examples:
Diff 6 and lower:   If AIP is at tech level 3, it is maxxed at 2.  So it will perform the planet search cycle for Tech II ships, then Tech I ships, then stop.

Diff 7 -> 7.8: If AIP is at tech level 3, it is maxxed at 3.  So it will perform the planet search cycle for Tech III ships, then Tech II ships, then Tech I ships, then stop.

Diff 8+: If AIP is at tech level 3, it is uncapped.  So it will perform the planet search cycle for Tech III ships, then Tech II ships, then Tech I ships, then Tech IV ships, then Tech V ships.  Then stop.

Planet Search Cycle
Loop over all planets (until CPA is full or out of available units, see below).  In all cases it is assumed that the AI is only releasing ships for the current tech level of the loop.  Guardians, Starships, and Carriers are not considered available, nor are ships under permanent forcefields (Spire Shield Guardpost, Forcefield III, etc.)

- Free Barracks troops.
- Free Military ships that are either: Guarding something (Guardpost, Command Center, etc), Special Forces, or are using PlanetaryRoamer behavior (not used much).
- Repeat on next planet.

Should the CPA not fill out yet it will then pull the remaining units it needs (at the AI's tech level) from the strategic reserve to attempt to fill out the CPA.  Should the Strategic Reserve 'bottom out' at 0%, then the CPA attacks shorthanded.

Strategic Reserve Ship Placement:
The 'warped in' strategic reserve ships do not require a warp gate to arrive on location, nor even a command center if you neutered a planet and left the barracks behind.  For each planet/location that ships were released from, their percentage of the non-reserve ships (example below) that were released gets a corresponding percentage of the reserve ships.

For example, the AI has pulled it's 50% of ships from the reserve, and then found 5 planets with ships it can release to fill the CPA.  Doing so, these planets each contribute 100% of the non-reserve ships, but only 50% of the full CPA when including the reserve.  If we assume these planets contribute the following percentages of the non-reserve ships: 15%, 20%, 10%, 25%, 30%, then the reserve will insta-warp a corresponding portion of its ships to those planets in equal values.  Any rounding errors or 'leftovers' from the reserve are simply dumped on the last planet.

After 30 minutes of acting like simple threat, these ships will join up with the threatfleet.

38

AI War / Re: Request to Keith - CPA Strategic Reserve Spawns

« on: November 28, 2012, 12:38:30 PM »

Thanks for detailing that for us Keith.  I'll try to consolidate it later and confirm it again with you and then transfer it over to the wiki.

39

AI War / Re: Proposed update for the Orbital Mass Driver

« on: November 28, 2012, 02:55:28 AM »

Either attacking with waves of bombers or using an armored warhead. The damage bonus for the OMD was suggested against Ultra-Heavy so it shouldn't affect starships.

I'm assuming that was a joke and you weren't actually recommending using an AIP increaser as a standard removal method for a single defensive unit (particularly one that usually hides under glass).  I've been drinking all night and that seems like a hysterically bad idea to me.

40

AI War / Re: Proposed update for the Orbital Mass Driver

« on: November 28, 2012, 02:18:00 AM »

As it is it's a total joke when superweapons like golems, spire fleets or champions enter the picture because 1.8M damage is like a relaxing massage to those things.

I'd rather see an adjusted form of the OMD brought to bear if this is what you're looking to balance the OMD against.  I rarely play with superweapons and would like to have a way past these monstrousities on Eye planets.

41

AI War / Request to Keith - CPA Strategic Reserve Spawns

« on: November 28, 2012, 01:53:36 AM »

Keith, any chance you could round up the CPA details into a single place for us?  I browsed through the release changes and they're all over the place, and the wiki page on these is sorely out of date (I'll throw an update into there once the details are nailed down).

Here's what I've got so far, trying for as complete as possible:

Cross Planet Attacks (CPAs) are time based assaults based on difficulty.  AIP is considered but time in game is the primary source of the volume.

CPAs will use x number of ships, ignoring firepower ratings.  Should your AI enemies be heavy on low-cap ships you'll see a larger firepower rating from a CPA than if they were using all gatlings.  These ships will start being collected at your current mark for AIP, then lower marks, drawing from barracks.  Should that be insufficient it will then pull from the strategic reserve for the defenses of the AI HWs at current mark.  Should that be insufficient it will then pull from increasingly higher marks (in the order of free -> Barracks -> Reserve) until the # of units is filled.

Strategic Reserve ships will be released from any random warp gate in the galaxy available command center, presumably as close to the player HW as possible. (This particular item is rather annoying...).

CPA ships are released as a general threat fleet with starting orders.  Should they get stymied, they'll attempt to join the existing threatfleet hovering somewhere out there in the galaxy.

42

AI War / Mine Line Placement

« on: November 27, 2012, 02:02:55 AM »

Anyone else having problems with the line placement tool following the line you set?  I keep ending up with it going off at odd angles.  Close, but off enough that creating a run between the wormholes and the cmd center is off.

43

AI War / Re: Multi - planet control groups

« on: November 26, 2012, 01:41:12 PM »

From my experiences, add to control group can add to things even if everything else in that control group is off planet. Or it did last time I tried. Something may have broke since then.

Oh, the new control group feature? You mean the one in the controls panel?

I'm trying to use the new control group feature but to do it I need to be able to add units to a group on multiple planets.  Scenario: I've got satellite worlds that keep dying to threatfleet, even with Warp-Blocker stations.  I'm trying to hide a rebuilder off in a corner until the enemy leaves, but Auto-FRD my engineers most of the time.  So, I setup a control group to stick the rebuilders into that never auto-FRDs and they hide in a corner.  The problem is I can't set multiple Rebuilders to the same control group unless they all start on a single planet and then I 'ship' them out to the different locations.

44

AI War / Re: Proposed update for the Orbital Mass Driver

« on: November 26, 2012, 01:38:59 PM »

Spire Gravity Drains.

Because it totally gets those every game.

Nah, but I swear every blinking system that I want to Raid has 2+ Grav Guardians stalking in it.

That's just the AI's way of showing its love. 

Snort, great.  She's one of those lovers, 'eh?  Next thing you know when I break up with it it'll molotov my boat, break all the glass in my truck, make my dog hate me and... you know, I need to stop listening to Country Music.

45

AI War / Re: Proposed update for the Orbital Mass Driver

« on: November 26, 2012, 01:29:02 PM »

Spire Gravity Drains.

Because it totally gets those every game.

Nah, but I swear every blinking system that I want to Raid has 2+ Grav Guardians stalking in it.