View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0002734 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - Game Mechanics | Feb 3, 2011 1:29 pm | May 13, 2015 5:32 pm | |
| Reporter | Sunshine | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Severity | feature | ||||
| Status | considering | Resolution | open | ||
| Product Version | 5.000 | ||||
| Summary | 0002734: Re-imagining Astro Trains | ||||
| Description | Right now, Astro Trains simply wander around and cause some minor problems and don't really have much effect or really mean much (exception being speed boosters). I propose a reimagining of astro trains, such that when they are enabled they actually function like couriers that the player WANTS to intercept. Something along the lines of one of the AI players launches an astro train with a significant order (to one of its planets, or to its fellow AI), and the player is given a message that an Astro Train is en route from (such and such a planet) to (such and such other planet). The astro trains will come in various other flavors and rarities that will give the AI some bonus if the accomplish their mission, and a bonus to players if they manage to halt the mission such as: Research Train (rare): if the train accomplishes its mission, the AI gains a new ship type as a prototype makes it to a production facility. A player destroying the train will gain access to the Mk1 version of a new ship type. Likely route would be from an ARS planet to a Mk4 factory planet (or mk5 fabricator if no mk4 factories available). Resource Train (common): resources are transported from this galaxy to the exogalactic production facilities. Allows the AI to launch a free wave if it makes it to its destination. If a player destroys it, provides resources as a Distribution Node without an AIP cost. Construction Train (medium rarity, sub-rarities depending on construction): the AI dispatches construction materials for an AI only building to one of its currently controlled planets. Will begin construction of a special building, such as ion cannon, grav drill, black hole machine, etc. when it reaches its destination. The construction will take time, and the item can be destroyed before it reaches completion but the player gains no bonus. If the player destroys the train, the train will leave a "construction node" behind that the player gains control of with extremely slow speed, but can be loaded into a transport. This node will allow the player to begin construction of the item for reduced cost on a planet in supply. Likely route from a Mk4 factory (or mk5 fabricator if no mk4 factories available) Orders Train (medium rarity): Dispatch a train from the core planet to a mk4 stronghold (mk4 planet with fortress) near player territory. If it arrives, AI player gets enough reinforcements over the next (x minutes - probably 5 minutes) to planets near the the alerted Mk4 stronghold to make up half of a normal-sized CPA, and when the reinforcements are completed it will initiate a CPA. Player interception of the train will cause the AI to be unable to reinforce alerted planets for a short time (AI reinforcements already on reserve for something else, so can't reinforce other locations), and the AI's "stalking" behavior will also turn off for the duration as the AI's forces become disorganized from not being formed into an organized CPA. Signal Train (common): Allocates a specific planetary target to attacking AI ships - those ships, rather than stopping to attempt to destroy each command center on each planet, will instead attempt to blitz through player planets in an organized group to attack the specifically allocated attack target. When the signal train arrives at its destination, it will simply wait there until it is destroyed, and its order will persist until it is destroyed and for a short time after (5 minutes or so). If the player destroys the train on an AI planet, the attacking AI forces will attack their own planet (they will not target anything that is not auto-targetable) for a short time. Will travel from an AI core planet to a random player planet (more weight on strategically important planets, such as those with Zenith Power generators or home command stations). Something along these lines should make Astro Trains a bit more interesting than they are currently, and make them into something more worthy of being called an "AI Plot" since most AI plots are all about ruining people's days. The Astro Trains should, of course, be relatively difficult (though not impossible) to destroy, and should probably maintain escorts for their journeys a la the Hybrid Hive logic. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | |||||
| related to | 0003598 | resolved | Chris_McElligottPark | Astro Trains do not attack |
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Another one: Upgrade Train (rare): AI Homeworld to a non-Mk4 planet. Upgrades the mark level of the planet by one (so all structures on-planet increase by one mark - command station, forcefields, guard posts). Player receives a free, random tech upgrade if they destroy it. Should provide a little room for experimentation for players if it unlocks something they wouldn't normally use, like fortresses or EMP mines, especially given the knowledge-scarce nature of the game. |
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I'm interested in the re-imagining of astro trains but am unsure if this is the direction I'd like to go. |
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Ideas, Draco? Mostly I'm interested in having Astro Trains be a more compelling challenge than simply a nuisance you have to ignore until you get enough firepower (or are bored). |
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I don't know. That's the problem. I've always been thinking "well this is dumb" with a friend of mine going, "I hate Astro Trains so much I have them turned on so I can blow them up." And I've yet to think of a solution. |
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Well, this idea would make them closer to what the in game narrative describes them as, trains carrying supplies to help the AI. As astro trains are right now, they don't really do anything that reflects that description. |
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True, they don't. And I wish they did. But I almost think that the OP suggestion might be taking it too far. |
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i think they should provide bonus to AI planets. not like suggestions but similar like this when on AI plant they get 1.2x reinforcements the Train idles for 1 minute then goes through. turret trains get bonus to damage 1.2x. also trains effect stacks except speed. also an reload train that boost reload speed by 1.2x. things like that be awesome |
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Taking it too far in what way? I was aiming for something dangerous enough to stand next to Hybrid Hives, Beachheads and Avengers - some of them are long-term danger (research trains, construction trains), some of them are pretty immediate "oh crap" dangers. Is it that there are too many options that trains can be, so it requires players to know way too much in order to enable it? I was going for options so that players will have to continuously re-prioritize things - you've got a wave incoming, and an alert pops up that there's a Resource Train on the way - do you really want to deal with another wave immediately after this one? Or you've got a CPA incoming, and there's a research train that gets under way - you really, really want that new ship type, but can you spare the forces and still survive? It's all about choices, and this poses some pretty big (and continuously different) choices to players in such a way that there's a potentially huge game breaking effect either way players decide to run with it. That and if this is too much, it's not too hard to tone it down - it just needs to be known how to tone it down. As for trains providing boosts to planets they're on as soMe_RandoM poses, that's something I'd rather avoid. They're annoying right now (and I'd really rather get completely away from their current mode), and making them boost ships (in ways other than speed) is just too much for when you've got 400 mk2 ships on planet and four astro trains to go with them. |
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What I mean is, the trains provide a permanent increase in player (AI or human) power. Hives are devastating, but killable. Beachheads are "oh shit!" but killable. Avengers are a one-time deal. These trains though....what's to stop the program from going "train spawning: [world 7 jumps out] headed to: [world 6 jumps out]" with a nearest-to-player location of [5 jumps out]? Trains, as they are now, are annoying, but only in player (or near-player) space. By causing Bad Things if the player doesn't get them it means that the train would HAVE to run through player-owned space or near player owned space (ie one to two jumps). But at that point, you're almost giving the player extra candy. I agree that the player should WANT to kill the trains, but I don't think I agree that the AI should get things if the player DOESN'T. And free ship unlocks is REALLY powerful. Even if its rare, you're essentially going "here player, have a free ARS." |
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Not really a permanent for most of them - the Upgrade, Research, and Construction all potentially do (the construction being really easy to interfere with though), but the Resource, Orders, and Signal trains are all one-time deals that provide some one time boost or some one time interference. "I agree that the player should WANT to kill the trains, but I don't think I agree that the AI should get things if the player DOESN'T." I don't quite understand why you're making this particular argument, because all the AI plots currently give the AI something the player doesn't have. With the trains, it could be a huge game-breaking thing, but the player has a chance to stop it. I didn't want this AI Plot to be another one where the player gets nothing while the AI gets a huge advantage. I think it slipped my mind above, but the trains should still be EXTREMELY hard to kill, so the AI is still likely to get the bonuses most of the time. Rather than players simply giving up by saying "screw it, let them have their bonuses, I'll just dig in," I wanted to add in bonuses the player can get with some effort. It will push people to deep strike and move out of their turtling comfort zones if its something worthwhile enough. It may also give some players an extra incentive to add this AI plot in for a bit more varied of a game because they DO have the option to get some neat bonuses at some very high risk (and yes, knocking out that Research Train SHOULD take a tremendous amount of effort, it's not just "oh, free ARS"), rather than just having to deal with the AI getting another unmitigated bonus. Edit: For this point "These trains though....what's to stop the program from going "train spawning: [world 7 jumps out] headed to: [world 6 jumps out]" with a nearest-to-player location of [5 jumps out]?" That will depend on the train - some of them will be harder to get to (especially the research train since right now it has a very strict path, but that can be worked with if you camp next to a Mk4 factory without taking it, for example), and the rest generally have the train headed to a planet near player territory. The Resource Train heads to a planet bordering Human space, the Orders Train heads to the nearest Mk4 stronghold to player space, the Signal Train heads INTO player space, the Upgrade heads to a planet near (preferably bordering) human space, and the Construction will head to some random planet but will leave from a Mk4 factory or Fabricator, so it's relatively easy to know where it's coming from. Some logic will probably also be added saying that the train cannot go to a planet within 2 jumps or so of its origin point unless no other options are available, and that it needs to actually make it to the command station on its destination planet before it can offload its cargo so that it's possible to intercept it on the destination planet if needed. |
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(Fixed prior post's buggered italics; I apparently don't know how to close my HTML tags correctly 9.9 ) > I don't quite understand why you're making this particular argument, because all the AI plots currently give the AI something the player doesn't have. While this is true, I don't want the trains to feel too....Fallen Spire, if you get my drift. I don't want it to be "OMG, I [b]have[/b] to go there." I want the bonus/detriment to be on a smaller scale and more frequent. I want trains flying all over the place like they do now, but have a benefit (to the player) for destroying them. I want the trains to actually be doing something for the AI as well, but not to the degree that the player feels like they're forced to destroy every single last one. |
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I'd give trains three base features, besides their various flavors (speed, turret, etc): 1) Every time a train leaves a player-held system AIP increases by 1 as the AI gets word of the extent of the player's threat. This would create a pressure similar to the AIP/30min setting, but give the player the ability to stop it by killing the train or killing stations to keep it out of player-held systems. 2) Trains spread alert status to the next system they enter when leaving an AI system that is on alert. This status lasts as long as the train is in the system. So consider the map: A-B-C-E | D If you held planet D, normally only B would be on alert. But if a train traveled from A to B to C to E, when it got to C it would put C on alert until it left that system because it "carried" the alert of system B with it. Once it got to E it would no longer be carrying an alert so E would remain unalerted. 3) Trains count as Warp Gates. So even if you've gate-raided a system, if there is a train in it when the AI decides to send a wave, it could use the train to launch a wave at a planet that you aren't expecting a wave to hit. So I'm marking this "inclined in favor" although I'd much prefer something like the above rather than the original suggestions. |
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1) I can get on board with. 2) This one would be tricky to manage, and would need to be carefully considered. If train1 pulls C to alert from B, does train2 (in C heading to E) pull the alert again? Ideally, no, but the code would need to distinguish between a normal alert and a train-pulled alert. 3) I don't like. It doesn't make sense. I could, however, see a new "Warp Gate" train that would have the ability, however. However, the other issue is that trains are significantly beefier than train stations. If a player holds a corner of the galaxy, it's unlikely that trains will travel through the player's systems if they kill all the stations in their territory. |
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Yeah, a Warp Gate Train would work for # 3. I'll leaving coding it up to them, but yes, train-pulled alerts would need to be tracked separately so you don't have another train pulling it. As for holding a galaxy corner, I don't see that as an issue really. You've managed to protect yourself from trains which is great. They still create a threat from # 1 if you expand outside your corner, and even if you do have a corner, without serious train station hunting you probably can't prevent # 2 from affecting some nearby enemy planets. |
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Just started a new game with 2xAstro Trains trying to estimate how much AIP would be created by +1 AIP per train leaving an occupied system (no Train Master AI). After 40 minutes I've had 14 trains through my systems. Just my home system had 3 trains before the 10 minute mark. I'd say with +1 AIP/train, there would need to be a lot fewer trains seeded (I'd scale it by difficulty setting). Either that or just give the trains a chance to generate 1 AIP, say 50%. That's enough of a threat you don't want them in your systems. Of course I'm guessing that as I get better control of the universe I'll be able to limit trains more so its really likely to be front-loaded AIP instead of a constant 1 AIP/3 minutes. Another concern would be Train Master being an easy AI, +AIP from trains might be too harsh on newer players. |
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Shield Breaker trains: They damage any Force Field they pass through, instantly dropping it to 5% health, which should be enough to uncover the warp point briefly. |
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I like that idea. Although I would make it more specific in that it doesn't damage non-blocking FFs or the Spire Shield Bearer (because it's unrepairable). |
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Oh yes please! |
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While I agree that astro trains are frankly, irrelevant at present, and I like a lot of the suggestions here, what I really don't like the idea of any astro train that can increase AI power without limit or player input, such as the research and upgrade trains- there's just too many ways for the AI to be just stupidly nasty with stuff like that. Breaking big AI chokepoints early on can be hard enough as it is without putting a time limit on it. I certainly wouldn't mind them being put in, having said that, but I think there should be a distinction between purely temporary/reversible benefits, such as the orders, signal and constructor trains, and non-reversible, such as research and upgrade- two separate plots, like hybrids and advanced hybrids, perhaps? |
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I don't have much of an opinion on this change except to say that if it's adopted, I think the player shouldn't be told what kind of train it is (e.g. research, resource, etc.). |
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I don't have much of an opinion on this change except to say that if it's adopted, I think the player shouldn't be told what kind of train it is (e.g. research, resource, etc.). |
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I have two issues with Astro Trains as they are implemented now: 1) They're less like trains, and more like patrols for the A.I. 2) They provide no possible benefit for the player, so there is little incentive to use them. Lore-wise, the A.I. expends as little of it's resources as possible in its home galaxy. Unless someone riles it up, it doesn't really move units around, or produce much locally. Teleporting units to deal with humans is more expensive than it's worth, and it only does so if we've become a major threat. But the A.I. still (theoretically) creates buildings, moves resources (and buildings/units?) around, and move those pesky captured human rebels to a secure location. Some worlds aren't well defended, or they might need to cross human space with these convoys. So why not create a network of shield, high health "Astro Trains" to move things around on the cheap? These trains would be targets of opportunity for the player, and attract marauders like flies, hungry for riches. Players would be encouraged to create strike teams into enemy territory (if they heard news of a train.) Trains with better bounty would have escorts, and attract more marauders. Cargo ideas: A) Prisoner train: The A.I. has captured some remaining humans in a less defended territory. It is sending them in a train to a class IV world at least X hops away. If it arrives, it will create a captured human colony. If you capture it, one of two things can happen: Option one: You rescue a group of rebels, creating a "rebel colony ship." You can then use this ship to create a rebel command center. The easier way to do this is just to rename the normal colony ship, and require you to have two jumps between each additional command center. No new units required. If you want to get fance, each additional colony ship could create a new building type, and give you a rebel science lab. The rebels have to have developed some pretty good stealth tech to stay under the radar of the A.I. for so long. The science lab could provide stealth tech, call rebels from areas outside each solar system, etc. option two: The A.I. has captured a marauder band. Perhaps if you capture more, the marauders will work with you for a fee (on non-resource trains) or a share of the booty? The other train ideas mentioned by previous commenters should also be included. Special buildings, resources, etc. This would create a reason to enable Astro Trains, while still giving the A.I. extra weapons. Like all the other additions, there should be difficulty levels you can pick and choose from. P.S. I would be happy to pay for a DLC with this in it--maybe combine it with the "Major factions" addition? |
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Another possibility is having capturable train stations. various options listed below: 1) Your own patrolling "guard" trains. 2) "Wormhole" like function between owned stations? Or simply load your fleet into a train, which acts as a super-durable transporter. 3)Either the station or the trains could give bonuses in the system they are in. Metal, speed, attack, defense, etc. Have the player pick one. 4)Stations or trains attract marauders and rebels. 5)Stations produce or simply hold something special inside them. Advanced research station, advanced factories, etc. 6) Low powered ship convoys/trains for players? Perhaps rebels hole up in the stations, and patrol between them, or players simply can't use trains as powerful as the A.I. (or they only get one A.I. train, upon the capture of the station.) 7) Stations enable trade with minor factions. This may only be relevant if the "Major factions" idea is created. |
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I like this idea, and I think the implementation could be a lot more interesting than trains currently are. (Personally, I think they're irritating, but not in a good way). I like the idea of the AI having inter-planetary activity- possibly have Mark IV worlds be some sort of "Depot", with other planets providing the routes, while trains avoid routes through player space? This could create an interesting mechanic where the player attempts to strike into AI territory to hit trains in poorly defended systems. I'd say only have them actually start after the player really has a foothold and is in the late second stage of the game, and then keep rules so they have to be within say, five or six jumps of a player planet and must be travelling at least five or six planets, to keep this from being problematic. Possible additional suggestions: Zenith Reserve - AI is consolidating the storage. These would need to be decent mark, or all of a single type (maybe both?) to be worth the trouble. Deposit - On death, train spawns several low-level spirecraft asteroids. Rebel Transport - Civilians willing to fight against the AI. Take out the escorts and they'll join your cause. (Possibly tie in a way for the player to gain access to marauder vessels?) Distribution - Grant the player metal (possibly a way to influence the salvage mechanic? Salvaged materials must go from a "salvage" world to some sort of Exo-galactic transporter, to allow for processing out of galaxy (otherwise salvage waves are kind of weird, all told. The ai doesn't really need resources.) Honestly, I'm a pretty big fan of everything listed in the thread. The current problem with trains is that they're an irritating mechanic with absolutely no reward (remember old golems after spirecraft and enclaves got introduced? Kinda like that), whereas with some sort of mechanic that rewards the player for pursuing, escorting, destroying, etc. |
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"Resource Train (common): resources are transported from this galaxy to the exogalactic production facilities. Allows the AI to launch a free wave if it makes it to its destination. If a player destroys it, provides resources as a Distribution Node without an AIP cost." Instead of making Resource Trains launch a normal wave, how about it increases the level of a Reprisal wave if present or adds x% (50?) To the threat counter? The most important thing about all types of these Astro Trains is the routes must be LONG or pass close to player planets, as we don't want a train that's going to turn a Mk3 planet into a mk4 in just one jump. It'll need to be around 5-7. A player needs time to intercept and destroy these trains, especially if they are tough, That or if it must past close, a train must pass this close to avoid causing Deepstrike to take out common trains. This also allows you to tailor specific trains to avoid being within 3 jumps of Player owned OR neutral planets if possible, for especially powerful trains though you force the player to balance Deep striking against allowing the train to boost the AI. I should mention though that especially strong trains must be exceedingly rare, as they pose a huge threat and reward even by AI plot standards. |
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Train ideas: Redeployment train: * From: Un-alerted AI world * To: Alerted AI world or Exo Wormhole * If successful: ships are moved to the new planet or to some sort of "Exogalactic Points" * If killed: contents are either captured or destroyed. Possibly AI Progress * Reason: The AI thinks those ships could be better-used elsewhere Resource train: * From: AI world * To: Exo Wormhole * If successful: Either nothing or "Exogalactic Points" * If killed: Distribution node * Reason: The AI needs resources for its *important* interests, not this piddly little backwater. Construction train: * From: Exo Wormhole * To: Relevant planet * If successful: construct some sort of temporary somethingorother. A structure that will self-attrition, so it doesn't build up some kind of unbeatable tank where the player can't do anything about it. * If killed: nothing * Reason: The AI has specialized tools for things, but they can't be delivered using the warpgates for some reason. Heck, maybe make a version of the Astro Train plot where it uses the trains instead of (most of its) Warp Gates. (Presumably it would get more forces to compensate for this awkwardness) |
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Trains [i]instead of[/i] Warp Gates could be really interesting. They'd have to be completely restructured, but if it could be worked out the right way it could be a very interesting mechanic. |
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"We knocked over a train full of core starships! Sweet!" *Wee-oo-wee-oo* "This is the Special Forces. You're under arrest for knocking over Astro Trains." "RUN AWAY!" :D |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Feb 3, 2011 1:29 pm | Sunshine | New Issue | |
| Feb 3, 2011 1:33 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| Feb 3, 2011 1:33 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => considering |
| Feb 3, 2011 1:55 pm | Sunshine | Note Added: 0009997 | |
| Feb 3, 2011 3:56 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0009998 | |
| Feb 3, 2011 7:57 pm | Sunshine | Note Added: 0010005 | |
| Feb 3, 2011 8:02 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0010006 | |
| Feb 3, 2011 8:08 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0010007 | |
| Feb 3, 2011 8:20 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0010008 | |
| Feb 3, 2011 8:34 pm | soMe_RandoM | Note Added: 0010009 | |
| Feb 3, 2011 8:34 pm | soMe_RandoM | Note Edited: 0010009 | |
| Feb 4, 2011 11:28 am | Sunshine | Note Added: 0010013 | |
| Feb 4, 2011 11:42 am | Draco18s | Note Added: 0010015 | |
| Feb 4, 2011 5:31 pm | Sunshine | Note Added: 0010018 | |
| Feb 4, 2011 5:35 pm | Sunshine | Note Edited: 0010018 | |
| Feb 4, 2011 6:41 pm | Draco18s | Note Edited: 0010015 | |
| Feb 4, 2011 6:45 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0010031 | |
| Jun 15, 2011 11:54 am | Hearteater | Note Added: 0012451 | |
| Jun 15, 2011 12:51 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0012454 | |
| Jun 15, 2011 1:39 pm | Hearteater | Note Added: 0012455 | |
| Jun 15, 2011 1:39 pm | Hearteater | Note Edited: 0012455 | |
| Jun 17, 2011 9:14 am | Hearteater | Note Added: 0012470 | |
| Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm | Hearteater | Note Added: 0012614 | |
| Jun 29, 2011 1:22 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0012616 | |
| Jun 30, 2011 6:29 am | motai | Relationship added | related to 0003598 |
| Oct 30, 2012 11:23 am | Kahuna | Note Added: 0028840 | |
| Oct 31, 2012 3:56 am | Lord Of Nothing | Note Added: 0028848 | |
| Aug 6, 2014 8:04 pm | AdamMil | Note Added: 0038868 | |
| Aug 6, 2014 8:04 pm | AdamMil | Note Added: 0038869 | |
| Jan 2, 2015 12:57 pm | zswesterdahl | Note Added: 0039807 | |
| Jan 2, 2015 2:28 pm | zswesterdahl | Note Added: 0039810 | |
| Feb 24, 2015 10:06 pm | sk_2013 | Note Added: 0039913 | |
| Mar 4, 2015 11:03 am | ParadoxSong | Note Added: 0039922 | |
| May 13, 2015 5:15 pm | Radiant Phoenix | Note Added: 0040750 | |
| May 13, 2015 5:24 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0040753 | |
| May 13, 2015 5:32 pm | Radiant Phoenix | Note Added: 0040754 |
